is Chuck Norris for Real!

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kermit
Posts: 605
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:38 pm

Postby kermit » Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:39 pm

People talk about streetfights as if they are super impressive demonstrations of fighting ability. They aren't. Most people don't know how to fight. If Bruce was in streetfights he probably wouldve been mostly whooping no skilled no hopers. Winning tournaments against other trained fighters is more impressive than ko-ing some bums in an alley.

Kwai Chang
Posts: 1505
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 10:05 pm

Postby Kwai Chang » Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:00 pm

[Quote=Chi Liu San]Carruthers is quite quick with those hands of his, but the choice of words in that vid was not worthy to taken seriously.[/Quote]

I wouldn't take it seriously either. It's like comparing a Porche (Lee) with a Skoda (Carruthers). The only similarity is that both have four wheels!

kermit
Posts: 605
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:38 pm

Postby kermit » Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:23 pm

No, I like Bruce Lee.

My point was that streetfights are nowhere near as interesting, or as much of a demonstration of fighting skill as high level tournaments.

Fabhui
Posts: 446
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 8:37 am

Postby Fabhui » Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:58 pm

I have just been reading the progression of this thread to fabian as his instructor is tommy carruthers and fabian is one of a handful of people that tommy has authorized to teach jeet kune do.Fabian's feelings on the ability of tommy carruthers are that no one can comment on his abilities unless they have met the man.To put in my own two cents fabian has been training in various martial arts since the age of 5, I also know that he spent several years living in thailand training full time in muay thai alongside champions at a camp in udonthani under ajaan paknakorn (excuse my spelling).If fabian has thrown away all of his other training to solely concentrate on what tommy carruthers teaches then in my opinion from knowing fabian then tommy carruthers is without a doubt the real deal.
I am sure when he is able to fabian will be able to answer any questions any of you have on here regarding tommy carruthers.
Here is a pic of fabian with tommy if I can get the thing to work lol
[img]http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/8670/fabtom.jpg[/img]


Kwai Chang
Posts: 1505
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 10:05 pm

Postby Kwai Chang » Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:18 pm

Fabian and I have already exchanged views about Carruthers. Ironically enough it was this time last year. Must be a seasonal thing....

My research into the John Liu/Chuck Norris bout (which formed part of my article on Ray's site) was based upon reports in the French press. Liu was quite a popular figure in France for a period of time.

Kwai Chang
Posts: 1505
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 10:05 pm

Postby Kwai Chang » Fri Dec 25, 2009 10:45 am

[Quote=fist] yeah i have researched, this why i wrote what i wrote concerning Joe lewis and Bruce.[/Quote]

I don't know what you have researched but it's not rooted in any kind of reality. The fact that you were not aware that Joe Lewis was one of the top tournament fighters [B]before[/B] meeting Lee speaks volumes.

I'd suggest you put away your copy of 'Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story' and do some reading...







Kwai Chang
Posts: 1505
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 10:05 pm

Postby Kwai Chang » Fri Dec 25, 2009 7:22 pm

[Quote=Death Kick Kung Fu]My father states he knew some TOP Karate fighters that perhaps your father may have heard of them[/Quote]

Terry O'Neill is a legendary figure in UK Karate and was a member of the famous Red Triangle Team along with Frank Brennan (my father saw him compete at Crystal Palace). My father was present at seminars which Terry attended and other renowned Shotokan names such as Bob Rhodes, Bob Poynton, Billy Higgins and Andy Sherry. These men were/are extremely tough traditional Karateka.

Terry O'Neill was also the founder/editor of a leading martial arts publication called Fighting Arts International (I have many back issues) and also appeared in some movies. He is featured in an excellent book which I purchased last year entitled Working With Warriors. I'd recommend this Pete.

[upload]948[/upload]

My father began his Karate training with the great Tommy Morris who founded the famous Kobe Osaka Dojo in Glasgow. Tommy Morris was the first ever Scottish black belt and brought the Shukokai system to the UK. My father attended a seminar by Kimura, the founder of Shukokai when he visited Glasgow.

[url]http://www.worldkarate.net/About%20Us.shtml[/url]

Due to travelling/work my father switched to Shotokan in the mid 70s and ran courses in the Coatbridge area with Ronnie Watt. Ronnie Watt was well connected with the main Shotokan names and my father had the opportunity to train with leading Japanese instructors such as Enoeda, Kase, Kanazawa, and Shirai. He has a lot of great photos of himself competing at Crystal Palace and of various Sensei which I must get around to scanning.

Your post was very interesting Pete and I enjoyed reading it.

Pete Senior
Posts: 430
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 1:46 pm

Postby Pete Senior » Sat Dec 26, 2009 10:09 am

When I read these debates based on probabilities, such as Bruce Lee vs Chuck Norris or Joe Lewis. I feel it necessary to comment on these speculative debates as one who is an instructor of Martial Arts for 35 years and as one who has also been involved in street fights since the age of 5 in a local town in Jamaica where I was born.
Firstly, I have to defend the late Bruce Lee and say it’s not possible for Bruce to have acquired such articulate skills in Martial Arts and not be able to use his skills in a street fight unless cowardice overpowered him. Martial Arts is a form of superior advanced techniques. For a fighter, that would enable one to articulate his/her moves from practice and good training to be exceptional. Bruce Lee, Chuck Norris and Joe Lewis were all skilled in Martial Arts and it is now impossible to equate or determine which of these men was more skilled than the other. In order to evaluate this by speculation one would certainly have to have seen each of these men perform on levels of demonstration where one can determine each mans’ level of resilience against the most superior techniques of each of them. This is no longer possible today, however it is possible for someone who was familiar with all 3 men’s abilities at the time Bruce was alive to assimilate a possible outcome in a spar between the 3. Both Joe Lewis and Chuck Norris would have already determined in their minds who would have had the edge, bearing in mind they were both alleged to have worked out with Bruce in a gym whilst he was alive. Whether or not they would have made it clear or not, by honestly stating the possibilities of a win or no win bout can only be down to these men. Any proficient fighter can determine whether he/she could have the upper hand over another in a spar quite easily, having made the decision to eliminate the element of pride from his/her decision.
These titles given to Martial Arts competition fighters such as “The Greatest” is more of a symbolic gesture of appreciation as opposed to reality. Unlike boxing where the fights were based purely on the skills of hand techniques and resilience of high level stamina in a ring. Many skilled fighters were never exposed to the world of commercial fights in the sense of being propagated as “The Best”, in fact the best fighter terminology does not exist in a world of a 6 billion population with diverse cultural origins and numerous fighting abilities yet be to be discovered. Most fighters of excellence were never interested in exposure of any sort, this is a western cultural behavior pattern. Many skilled fighters, I believe, were far better than Bruce Lee, Chuck Norris and Joe Lewis and were never even heard of in their peak moments of world exposure through film and television. In no un-simple terms, exposure does not determine the best and anyone who actually believes that any single fighter can be the best in the world today simple because he/she had high exposure knows nothing about physical fighting or real combat experts whatsoever.
There are fighters and there are combat experts and there is a great difference between the two. A fighter has good fighting skills that many can see and feel enlightened by. A combat expert fights with no rules whatsoever and most people never get the chance to behold such skills from such individuals. The only major difference between the two is: most fighters want to be seen as someone good with his/her skills at the highest level and the combat fighter wants only to be seen at his highest level, so as to be left alone simply because in his mind a serious fight has only one end.
Speculation is good for the ego, but is very much a propaganda tool when discussed in interviews such as the one with Chuck Norris. The real true martial artist would never discuss issues that are no longer possible to form a conclusive prospective of what would or what would not have been, without practical knowledge or experience simply because the biggest weapon in any fight is “the element of surprise”. Something no fighter, whether or not he/she is referred to as “The Greatest” can ever determine before a fight. The strongest or largest animal in the world can be taken down by the wits of the human mind and two men in a fight with great skill are sometimes determined by mind skills entwined with exceptional fighting abilities.
Watching Martial Arts movies and trying to psycho-analyse two fighters ultimate skill between each other is a total different ball game unless you yourself understand the real concept of a physical fight and its ramifications. I have 35 years experience of teaching Martial Arts and I have seen some exceptional street fighters who were just tacticians in combat and up to this day I would not say I was superior to any of them. Street fighters are also in a whole different world and to actually delve into their world of fighting and in their case it’s based on the “Strength of the Heart”, something that a lot of martial artists who have become institutionalized by way of “Rules of the game” cannot live up to. In other words a referee/rules is a valuable safety net against getting badly hurt.
My conclusion is a great fighter is only a temporary thing until he meets his match and no one as a martial artist can really ever be the greatest fighter in any system and no system can ever be the ultimate best. A good fighter makes the best of the techniques within an effective system. An effective system has to be real and within the framework of a fighter that has real life experiences as a fighter.
My formula for this is called the S.P.E.C.K.S of a fighter.

SPEED= in execution
PERCEPTIVENESS= In motion
EXTREME = Awareness
CALCULATIVE= attacks
KILLER=instincts
SURPRISE= attack wins
This will mean very little to most fighters, however it something that works for me and my many students over the years.

[Quote=Kawichang]My father began his Karate training with the great Tommy Morris who founded the famous Kobe Osaka Dojo in Glasgow. Tommy Morris was the first ever Scottish black belt and brought the Shukokai system to the UK. My father attended a seminar by Kimura, the founder of Shukokai when he visited Glasgow.[/Quote]


Your father has certainly been among the great masters kwaichang. Very impressive record of activity in the excellent art of karate.

Kwai Chang
Posts: 1505
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 10:05 pm

Postby Kwai Chang » Sat Dec 26, 2009 6:09 pm

[Quote=fist]Bruce once had a scrap with two grand masters at once.came to the dojo challenging Bruce, had a descrepancy about Bruce teaching the arts to westerners giving it to them raw and uncut i might add.Bruce beat both of those guys ass in a matter of five minutes or so and said that was two long,he could have been hurt.lolyou can say what hell you want proof is in the pudding. [/Quote]

That was right after Bruce defeated a high ranking triad boss and his deadly gang of henchmen without even removing his shades... Incidentally, Kung Fu practitioners don't train in a dojo. That's a Japanese term.

[Quote=Death Kick Kung Fu]I will look out for this book it sounds interesting my friend. That working with warriors sounds really good my kind of stuff when you talk STREET COMBAT....[/Quote]

It's an excellent read Pete. Dennis Martin, Terry O'Neill and Gary Spiers were all bouncers in Liverpool. Spiers was an interesting character and employed what he called 'applied Karate'. He did an interview with Terry O'Neill which was quite controversial at the time due to his frank discussion of street combat.

[url]http://www.cqbservices.com/?page_id=38[/url]

[Quote=FLK Pete Senior]Your father has certainly been among the great masters kwaichang. Very impressive record of activity in the excellent art of karate.[/Quote]

Thank you Pete Senior. Your post was very informative.




Kwai Chang
Posts: 1505
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 10:05 pm

Postby Kwai Chang » Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:19 pm

I agree with Pete regarding Drunken style. It looks interesting in movies but is a bit too esoteric for dealing with an attack. Also, the application of an animal style during combat should be economical rather than flamboyant. It wouldn't be a 'shapes' scenario, as depicted in the films we all love.

[Quote=Death Kick Kung Fu]Question for you Kwai Chang.......I thought Chuck Norris was meant to be UNBEATEN....in this video he lost this fight to a guy named Allen Steen....in SUDDEN DEATH last minute bout.....any INFO on this guy Allen Steen...[/Quote]

Chuck Norris was defeated by some well known fighters including Joe Lewis. During the 1968 US championships organised by Allen Steen, Norris was punched in the plexus by Lewis and lost the bout.

Allen Steen is a Taekwondo pioneer from Texas who trained with Jhoon Rhee, becoming his first American black belt. Steen was very successful on the tournament circuit and also had some prominent champions as students.










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