Why? the fuss about the Wing Tsun style

Discuss specific martial art systems and other styles that you enjoy to see or practice yourself.
peringaten
Posts: 809
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:19 pm

Postby peringaten » Mon Mar 08, 2010 6:38 pm

I don't do wing chun, but my hung gar sifu teaches both... Wing chun he's from Ip Chun lineage and teaches in big classes; Hung gar he's from Lau Kar Leung's lineage & only teaches privately...
Now I mention this because wing chun isn't such a taxing style, you can teach large groups competently; more taxing gruelling low-stanced styles take much more work & teaching to get the intricacies it seems... So far as I know a number of his students have quit hung gar because they found it too hard and moved to the easier wing chun.

So... with it's more relaxed stand-up facets more folks can digest it, the more folks it spreads its roots to. Other traditional styles hurt more & are harder to transmit effectively.

peringaten
Posts: 809
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:19 pm

Postby peringaten » Mon Mar 08, 2010 6:41 pm

Oh yeah, plus the chun got the Bruce connection....

peringaten
Posts: 809
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:19 pm

Postby peringaten » Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:05 am

Tbh, wing chun seems to me to be effective against your average dude on the street or something, but generally (& I am just talking generally) not capable enough to defeat someone trained to just barrel in feet & hands a blazing & just hard pummeling. Not saying I fully agree, but I've seen it called "communist kung fu" before... i.e., good in theory, but not in practice. Now, I don't mean to take away from it or any truly proficient practitioners, for one I can see the crossover between the style & mine hung kuen, we have some very similar aspects just dealt with in very different manners, but the way most seem to teach or practice wing chun doesn't look effective enough to me to generally deal with harder more maniacal (controlled or otherwise) styles. It looks easier to overpower if you're willed & trained enough than other styles.

You bring up a good point about staged fights Pete. Compliant application drilling can only get folk so far. Gotta put some real gumption in to properly test out & train your style. I don't know about that chi-sao stuff, I'm sure it has some good benefits, but seems it could easily slot into that 'communist' analogy the way many are rocking it...

k-fist
Posts: 178
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:51 pm

Postby k-fist » Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:58 pm

I studied Wing Chung for 8 years under 3 Sifus. What i can say about this style is and this is very important you must have a good teacher or sifu, i don't want to irritate you Death Kick Kung Fu but what i have seen from the video the so called expert your father is sparring with is not a good Wing Chung man. What he does looks like Wing Chung but it is to stiff, all his movements ... i learned here in germany only from sifus who learned direct from Leung Ting the last student of Yip Man. A good wing chung fighter does not wait till his opponent hit or kick in a real fight ( and i had a lot when i was young on the street ) you go straight forward on the center line... High Kicks only work if the are real fast like you see some K1 fighters do. If not it is very easy for a trained Wing Chung man to catch the leg with a double guun sau and to throw the opponent 2-4 meters away!!!
Wing Chung is in the beginning easy to learn ... the footwork ....the chain punches... but later after one or two years when you start to learn chi sau it is very difficult and takes much time of practise that is the point most of the pupils stop with wing chung cause you must learn to feel. If you have learned to feel only a little bit ... that is the step you become a weapon. It is now 8 years back since my last lesson in wing chung but it is like to ride a bicycle what you have learned it is in you. I had a bad back injury and afterwards i quit. Maybe i will start again this year when i have more money ( wing chung is expensive !!! ). Sometimes i train with a young man who is 22 years younger than i and i stil can do sparring with him. I am not as fast as he ( only my chain punches the are faster ) but the big diffrence is i feel. Another very important thing is a good sifu learns you how to kick and not only the arm techniques !!! The kicks in wing chung are very difficult to learn. I know this because i learned also 3 years Taekwon Do. The main diffrence is to learn how to get impact on a short range of kicking if so your kicks become shadowless and it almost impossible to see the kick for the opponent.

As you see i love this martial arts style very much and the day will come i do it again under a good sifu and i hope this time i will learn the form of the wooden dummy and it's applications ( chi sau, fighting and so on)

Here can you see my last sifu ( he is called in germany the giant of wing chung because he is 2 meter big)

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlL_RzZCsmM[/url]

And this will be my new sifu

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSVXnKsFr90[/url]

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COMwf_9ew_c[/url]

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3pKhHty5Vw[/url]

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-3Ax7AkScI[/url]

k-fist
Posts: 178
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:51 pm

Postby k-fist » Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:58 pm

Chi Liu San how long you do you train wing chung ? Here are some scans from my books how you can counterattack a high kick.
[IMG]http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk24/kuenfist/WingChung001.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk24/kuenfist/WingChung.jpg[/IMG]

And here you can see a high kick of the wing chung system from my last sifu 20 years back when he was 25 years old:

[IMG]http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk24/kuenfist/WingChung002.jpg[/IMG]

Hwang Jang Lee is one of the best kickers i have seen. He kicks like he has a third arm but with longer distance. And the most important thing is he feels when he is kicking, if the kick is fended he does not stop kicking with the same leg, no he finds another gap at the opponent body where he kicks in.

There are chi sau drills in the wing chung system for the legs too. They are called chi gerk. Most wing chung sifus shows you these drills when you are ready with the chi sau arm drills but imo this takes to long because you need 6- 10 years to learn them. The good sifus show them after a year step by step. The big diffrence of the wing chung system against the most other kung fu or fighting systems is that the wing chung fighter kicks in a close range.

All my sifus said the most dangerous fighters you have to fear are the wrestlers and jiu jitsu experts because they tackle you to the ground and there it is very difficult to fight them as you see when you watch UFC.

But what i want to say there is no good or bad fighting style ...... there are only bad teachers and pupils who think after a few month of training a martial arts system they are invincible ....... it takes a long time to master a system and this is no warranty that you not get beaten!!! We are all humans .... that's the way it goes.

k-fist
Posts: 178
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:51 pm

Postby k-fist » Thu Mar 11, 2010 3:07 pm

Nice said Eagels Claw Champ. The hardcore streetfighters out there are the real killers because in a streetfight everything is real, there are no rules no limitations !!! And when you do a mistake you die !!!!
But i think this is not the point here, it is more about to learn a martial arts system for your good health and if it comes to a real fight to have a chance to stay alive.

peringaten
Posts: 809
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:19 pm

Postby peringaten » Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:03 pm

No way would I want to block a kick like that shown above in the WC article. If the force of the kick is hard enough it's going straight through that block or crippling it in some manner. Not keen on that 360 or rush in idea. I've been taught a little kick blocking in my hung kuen, one principle so far (still much to learn) is to move low at speed (fast as possible) and to the outside of the kick whilst scooping it with a circular motion upwards & away to off-kilter & unbalance the kicker - there's a lot of circles in hung kuen, not just force; redirection - before closing the gap as much as possible from the side (lot of stance practice goes into this - dropping in to low within the opponent's space with various limbs coming at you from stood guard up at a 45 degree angle facing either way around) for some real hard finishing relentless close work, elbows, hands, forearms, with the force always moving inwards to the opponent until they drop. Takes a lot of drilling to get timing & reaction speeds right as well as awareness of the opponent's moves towards you.

peringaten
Posts: 809
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:19 pm

Re:

Postby peringaten » Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:12 pm

[Quote=J0shuaKane] [Quote=peringaten]move low at speed (fast as possible) and to the outside of the kick whilst scooping it with a circular motion upwards & away to off-kilter & unbalance the kicker...not just force; redirection - before closing the gap as much as possible from the side[/Quote]
my way works for me now, but this is something i should spend alot of time trying. seems like its the same type of principles as defending against a knife. thanks.[/Quote]

It is an interesting effective way of doing things I think. Feel I want to talk more about how things have been relayed to me so far. We train the scoop (it can be a more direct stright thrust crossing under if the force & angles are right) with both an upwards & downwards hand in different manners for different eventualities, many different ranges of motion, which once having redirected the leg can continue to move into a strike further into the opponent to off kilter. Our other hand (eithr can attack/defend the incoming leg) we train to strike the opponent wherever feasible at pretty much exactly the same time as the other is redirecting the leg, whist stepping around and moving into their space with solid stancework. We train speed for if you did scoop their leg to the outside but moved around it to their inside instead of the outside within their space we can try to be faster than their reaction, eg. our stance could then move into jar their other leg say, whilst the other hand can cover our face say with a block adaptable to strike them (easier shown than typed), we use 1 & 2 strikes alternate arms pretty much at the same time if you get me; a block can pivot at the elbow to extend a strike... hard to explain.

We have been taught never to block a kick with a downward strike to their upcoming shin, too much upward force to the body could snap our arm say, but a downward strike to an upwards kick if possible could be utilised to their upper thigh to off kilter where they have less extension, have to be good at moving and closing gaps for this. It's all about moving, never stay static, avoid & redirect, get into openings, train all ranges of motion & overwhelm your opponent; closing the gap to give them less range.

Tbh, I see and hear there are similarities between hung kuen & wing chun, we have similar hand movements & some similar priciples - both Southern Chinese styles which all seem to kind of overlap - but executed in different ways. Look at the tiger crane form the beginning hand movements are apparently similarish to many in Wing chun , but executed much harder:

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OACRuVjqlMU[/url]

The moves Gordon does standing can redirect or hammer harder. Wing C has similar hand shapes but if I'm not mistaken they're taught to be more relaxed (could be wrong, but seems that way to me). We both redirect force, but this is combined with hard strength of conditioned muscles/tendons tension & relaxation. Chun seems more generally static & relaxed. HK moves around more.

My teacher said the best way you can learn real wing chun is to put hung kuen behind that understanding as the styles originate from a similar origin. Wing Chun with hung kuen power...
I'll stick with just the HK for now, but will be interested to learn more eventually.

peringaten
Posts: 809
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:19 pm

Re:

Postby peringaten » Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:31 pm

[Quote=Death Kick Kung Fu]I also think in street fights there must be awareness in terms of the ELEMENT OF SURPRISE....if someone programs themselves to of rigid system based on Kata's or Forms this is dangerous IMO. One has to adapt in accordance with the opponents aggression and unpredictable offensive motion.[/Quote]

This is an interesting point. I think it depends on the way you look at and train forms. We have three main forms in my lineage, the thing seems to be the understanding you take from them. They are the syllabus of our system. Pretty much every move in our form has a practical fighting application (some are based more on conditioning, but are still adaptable - although I can't speak for our Iron Wire form; got a ways to go before I understand that one), and is there to be drilled individually repeatedly, not just knowing how it could move without practice, it's all about the drilling into the muscle memory. You then take it out of the form & put it into the sparring situation & learn how it adapts in the different surprise situations, then put it back into the form with more understanding, you evolve. There's a lot of moves in our forms, a lot of syllabus, a lot of choice, a lifetime of drilling & sparring, you can string plenty into each other in all sorts of ranges of motion.

There's an old adage fear not the thousand moves practiced once, but the one move practiced 1000 times. You learn the intent of the forms teaching one move upon your body mechanics, its plausible applications, and make it work until it works.

I read another story about a boxer who was real good at doing a right cross: He was being trained by another fighter who said someone grabs you arm what do you do... the boxer said 'I'd pull it back out in some manner, etc.", the trainer says no, you'd do a right cross... Someone runs at you what do you do, boxer says 'leap out the way & try & trip him', trainer says no, do a right cross... Trainer says... etc., etc....

I think there's some truth in there - just drill & drill & drill every move, apply it, drill it again, apply, drill it again - this is true form work. Kung Fu! Any style; I'd guess this has to apply to wing chun too.

k-fist
Posts: 178
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:51 pm

Postby k-fist » Thu Mar 11, 2010 6:27 pm

Here are some of the best wing chung figthers


The hard old days:

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvK1pfyKtwg[/url]


Emin Botztepe

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YSYs6GX35Q[/url]

Heinrich Pfaff

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKPILLBpkrE[/url]

Master Fong

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ui6rj58DA0[/url]

Unknowen against a kickboxer

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlRPDhuX1DY[/url]

Henning Daverne

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-RXmSvM8FA[/url]

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abGwXa9pNDo[/url]

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qihZjGgRA4[/url]

Tommy Carruthers Jeet Kune Do more like wing chung !!!

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV6JdzCbXFE[/url]

Dai Sifu Manday Nobert

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxuc7ZErOlw[/url]

Frank Ringeisen

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asOgnsUZoDE[/url]


Sifu Salih Avci

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrLuQ0aONCM[/url]




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